Retrieval Language + Market Price Changes (Sorry)

[tastypastry]

I added 'sorry' in the name of this thread because I think retrieval might be one of the most commonly asked about cards. It's clunky given how different people separate decks, and the differences in the bunny bits that mention different decks at times, and a sole 'discard pile' in another. But I'm not asking about that - though I think perhaps an official stance on that in the companion wouldn't be a terrible idea regardless. Anyway...

What I'm asking about is market price change cards (at least to start, and to serve as a good example).

Let's pretend earlier in the game I close Kaballa's. Fair. I play the card on 'top' of the market so that everyone can see what the prices are - I think something that is pretty well implied by the card and I'd be surprised if this isn't the standard operating procedure for everyone. 30 turns later in the game my opponent re-opens the market, changing the price. The next card that is to be played is 'Retrieval'...

1) Do you take the Kaballa's Closed Card that has been 'usurped' and add it to the discard pile, or do you simply stack the new price card on top of the Kaballa's closed card?

2) If you DO take the Kaballa's Closed Card and add it to the discard pile, does this count for RETRIEVAL as, quote: "any of the last five Run cards played". Technically this card wasn't one of the last five Run cards "played" - it's one of the last five run cards DISCARDED. Now, that said, if we say "no, since it was discarded", then this leads to the next question...

3) How about run cards that came through runs but weren't actually played (that is, they were discarded) by a player (e.g., they didn't have a bunny and it was aggressive, they chose not to play it, yellow ball stripe made it be discarded, they negotiated to not play it, etc.)?

Given our answers to these three questions, I think one of two conclusions will inevitably be reached:

1) It truly is the last five run cards that were played OR discarded. If this is the case, then I contend that the language on Retrieval in the companion should be amended to "last five run cards in the discard pile", rather than "last five run cards played".

2) It truly is the last five run cards that were played, not discarded. If this is the case, players will need to keep actual 'mental' track of which run cards were played and not played, and the companion should indicate that 'played' is expressly relating to that the card had to have been 'activated' or 'utilized' or similar wording.

I realize this is super pedantic, but we are on a Killer Bunnies message board, so I'm allowing my nerdiness to happen.

You may argue that 'Played' is a word that can INCLUDE the action of discarding. While a fair point, I disagree - for example, see the section on Special Cards (2.10): "When you flip over a Special card you may play the card, discard the card, or save the card." This implies that 'discarding' is not a subsection of 'playing', but a unique action.

Thanks for any thoughts.

P.S. The answer to the first question would also affect Alliteration Situation and also any reshuffling of decks that has to happen if cards were to run out (in the extraordinary scenario).

[piedaddy]

We play it by only the last 5 run cards that were actually played.

[tastypastry]

Answer from MahoBear8 on The Killer Bunnies Discord on 1/30/20 for anyone interested:

"1) Do you take the Kaballa's Closed Card that has been 'usurped' and add it to the discard pile, or do you simply stack the new price card on top of the Kaballa's closed card?
I believe the correct answer is stack, however, with the errata on the zeta zeta (latest printing) version, this clarification is not relevant to retrieval. ("Last five run cards played" is the current langauge. Used to be "any run card from the top seven cards of the general discard pile")

2) If you DO take the Kaballa's Closed Card and add it to the discard pile, does this count for RETRIEVAL as, quote: "any of the last five Run cards played". Technically this card wasn't one of the last five Run cards "played" - it's one of the last five run cards DISCARDED. Now, that said, if we say "no, since it was discarded", then this leads to the next question...
This one is a really good question that I happen to know. By strictest definition of "played" (mechanically consistent with Yellow-Ball Red Stripe), played only includes cards played OR DISCARDED from the top run or hand (discarded by normal means which is not possible from the hand in the case of run cards. Wheel's Chocolates type mechanics not included in this).
3) How about run cards that came through runs but weren't actually played (that is, they were discarded) by a player (e.g., they didn't have a bunny and it was aggressive, they chose not to play it, yellow ball stripe made it be discarded, they negotiated to not play it, etc.)?

Answered in #2, the asking of this question demonstrates to me that you've studied this game well

Given our answers to these three questions, I think one of two conclusions will inevitably be reached:

1) It truly is the last five run cards that were played OR discarded. If this is the case, then I contend that the language on Retrieval in the companion should be amended to "last five run cards in the discard pile", rather than "last five run cards played"

Not quite since there are reasons to discard a card, such as Wheel's Chocolates, that would not be counted for this.

2) It truly is the last five run cards that were played, not discarded. If this is the case, players will need to keep actual 'mental' track of which run cards were played and not played, and the companion should indicate that 'played' is expressly relating to that the card had to have been 'activated' or 'utilized' or similar wording.

Close, but also include cards that were discarded as part of the normal turn. Not cards discarded by other effects"

[tastypastry]

I then asked a follow up question referencing question number 1 irrelevant of 'retrieval'. That is, in the rare case that we ran out of draw cards and had to reshuffle the deck, would 'usurped' market cards that are 'under the current effect market card' be reshuffled:

"I was curious of whether you'd think of that interaction. This one I'd say I'm 80% sure on. The existence of "All Shops Open" as a mechanic to explicitly discard all the shop cards in play along with the fact that there is no explicit mention of discarding overridden shop cards, safest assumption is that they are not included in the reshuffle in normal circumstances.

And...

"Rare scenario, Player 1 closes market, Player 2 opens market next turn, Player 3 plays Retrieval and can presumably close the market again, even though the card is not in the discard pile. This interaction does not work with the old printing of retrieval, hence another reason the errata is important. It is questionable if this scenario actually works since it's very safe to say you could not retrieve a card that is still in play

For example, Player 1 plays Blue Gleeful, Player 2 cannot retrieve blue gleeful. In contrast. Player 1 plays Blue Gleeful, Player 2 kills Blue Gleeful, Player 3 Retrieves

The close the market for all mechanical purposes probably must still be considered in play so I'd say the interaction probably doesn't work. (Jeff may say differently if asked since he may not consider the implications of such a mechanical judgement"