Vel Crows and Leif Carrotson

[chasek]

I was playing a game and i used Leif Carrotson on my friend, and then he used Vel Crows.
Does Vel Crows stop Leif Carrotson from happening at all, or does Leif Carrotson still work but stays on the player for a turn?

[Nathan454]

I would say that since Leif is not picking up any bunnies that he should be discarded.

[yaana]

Anyone have an official word on this? Can you use Vel Crows to counter Leif Carrotson?

[TheDavii]

Jun 12, 2016 23:17:10 GMT -5 yaana said:

Anyone have an official word on this? Can you use Vel Crows to counter Leif Carrotson?

I agree with Nathan. I will expand on his answer by including reasoning. The fact of this case is that you played Leif directly on your friend who responded with Vel Crows. The rule for Leif Carrotson is:

Leif Carrotson (0352; Roaming Red Run; Aggressive; Dice= Violet, Black, Red; Direction= clockwise) ‘Leif Carrotson’ may be given to any player whose bunnies all join ‘Leif Carrotson’ and roam the board clockwise. ‘Leif Carrotson’ and the abducted bunnies visit one player per round of play who rolls the three 12-sided dice (Violet, Red and Black). The player’s action is determined by the highest die roll:

• Red die high = The player takes one bunny from ‘Leif Carrotson’ and places it anywhere in The Bunny Circle.
• Violet die high = The player takes nothing. ‘Leif Carrotson’ and the bunnies keep roaming.
• Black die high = The player throws one bunny overboard (discarded).

Just like all Roaming Red Run cards, if ‘Leif Carrotson’ hits a Barrier, it will reverse direction and will visit the same player on two consecutive turns. When ‘Leif Carrotson’ has no bunnies left onboard, he is discarded.

The rule for Vel Crows is:

Vel Crows (0532; Very Special; Aggressive) ‘Vel Crows’ may be used once by a Player to stop any action of any single card that moves one or more of his bunnies from their place in The Bunny Circle. ‘Vel Crows’ cannot be used to save bunnies that are killed or discarded. ‘Vel Crows’ must be used during the same turn that the bunny was taken. May be used at any time!

So, you played Leif; your friend responded with Vel Crows (which is a legal play) which kept his bunnies in place. Leif is therefore empty of bunnies and that triggers the rule "When ‘Leif Carrotson’ has no bunnies left onboard, he is discarded."

Since only when bunnies board Leif do the bunnies move (and are eligible for Vel Crows), that is the only time this applies. After that, when Leif moves, bunnies are removed from Leif, not from the Bunny Circle (so Vel Crows would not apply after the initial play of Leif).

So, long explanation, Vel Crows is a valid defense to the initial play of Leif, and Leif is removed from play.

Just as Nathan said. Given this analysis, is any other "official" ruling necessary?

[TheDavii]

I'm embarrassed to say that I found an official ruling that is opposite of what I argued above.

All the way back in 2006 there was a thread that addressed this and JB said that Vel Crows could NOT be used because the bunnies were abducted, the opponent was without bunnies, and Vel Crows is an aggressive card that requires bunnies in The Bunny Circle.

So, this old answer is going into the next version of the QCC so this error doesn't happen again. My apologies for not doing more research before I answered!

[mahobear8]

I think I disagree with JB on this one. Vel Crows describes that it "stops any action." In contrary to Return to Sender, Vel Crows seems to stop the action entirely, meaning they would have the bunnies available to play it since it prevents the bunnies from being taken in the first place. It's definitely a complicated scenario. Saying Vel Crows doesn't work here would also imply that Vel Crows wouldn't work against something like Defector Detector if the player only had the one bunny. Of course, we all know JB is occasionally inconsistent in his responses, so it's hard to say for sure.

In short, I would think that Vel Crows could be used to prevent Leif Carrotston, however if played later in the turn (as it says "Must be used during the same turn that the bunny was taken"), the player would need to have another bunny available.

Naturally, this begs the question, when would the player wait till later to play Vel Crows. I can think of a few scenarios, but unfortunately I don't have time to go over them.