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Post by OMFGitsVico on Aug 1, 2019 16:40:36 GMT -5
Ardra’s Long ConCard Text:May be used by the player with Carrot #37 to use Ardra to impersonate The Magic Carrot. At the end of the game (after The Magic Carrot is revealed and if Ardra is not The Magic Carrot), all players vote on which Carrot wins, either Ardra or the revealed Carrot. Each bunny Senator gets one additional vote. Bunny Bits*Ardra’s Long Con is placed under Ardra and moves with Ardra if traded or stolen, but is discarded if Ardra is returned to Kaballa. **In case of a tie vote, the revealed Carrot is The Magic Carrot. ***If Ardra is the revealed Carrot, Ardra is The Magic Carrot and no vote occurs. Personal Note: The effect of this card is a tie-in with Ardra's "powers" in Star Trek. In the show, she's a con artist and master of disguise, who tries to impersonate the real Ardra. I like this card idea, because it potentially creates a heavy tug of war for a Carrot without necessarily guaranteeing it'll win. I also wanted to give Senators more purpose. I can just imagine the new suspense involved with introducing a Magic Carrot vote at the end of the game. The two players in the end would have A LOT of convincing to do, especially if they did a lot of stealing and bunny killing during the game!
For the art, I'm thinking maybe an open costume trunk with "DISGUISES" written on it, filled with masquerade-esque masks of the other Carrots, like Tucker and Flo, etc.
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Post by mahobear8 on Aug 2, 2019 8:45:26 GMT -5
Ardra’s Long ConCard Text:May be used by the player with Carrot #37 to use Ardra to impersonate The Magic Carrot. At the end of the game (after The Magic Carrot is revealed and if Ardra is not The Magic Carrot), all players vote on which Carrot wins, either Ardra or the revealed Carrot. Each bunny Senator gets one additional vote. Bunny Bits*Ardra’s Long Con is placed under Ardra and moves with Ardra if traded or stolen, but is discarded if Ardra is returned to Kaballa. **In case of a tie vote, the revealed Carrot is The Magic Carrot. ***If Ardra is the revealed Carrot, Ardra is The Magic Carrot and no vote occurs. Personal Note: The effect of this card is a tie-in with Ardra's "powers" in Star Trek. In the show, she's a con artist and master of disguise, who tries to impersonate the real Ardra. I like this card idea, because it potentially creates a heavy tug of war for a Carrot without necessarily guaranteeing it'll win. I also wanted to give Senators more purpose. I can just imagine the new suspense involved with introducing a Magic Carrot vote at the end of the game. The two players in the end would have A LOT of convincing to do, especially if they did a lot of stealing and bunny killing during the game!
For the art, I'm thinking maybe an open costume trunk with "DISGUISES" written on it, filled with masquerade-esque masks of the other Carrots, like Tucker and Flo, etc. That's terrifying, lol |
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Post by OMFGitsVico on Aug 2, 2019 10:56:59 GMT -5
Heh, you don’t think it’s too overpowered, do you?
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Post by mahobear8 on Aug 2, 2019 12:21:31 GMT -5
Heh, you don’t think it’s too overpowered, do you? By my value-threat theory of Killer Bunnies, it's extremely difficult for a card to be overpowered in a 4+ player game. There are several that would consider this overpowered, however I don't think it is. I do however think it creates some quite toxic scenarios. By the Passivity Meta, it theoretically shuts down any attempts at any Aggressive strategy while ironically probably being labeled itself as Aggressive. In practice, this doesn't always happen so it falls under value-threat and is therefore balanced in 4+ player games. If we look at objective Kaballa Value and efficiency, the Magic Carrot is objectively worth 540 Dolla currently, 800 Dolla when we get the planned 26 more carrots (The objective value of having every carrot for auto-win condition, obvious Relative Value of the Magic Carrot is infinite). This card essentially cuts that value in half, making it and the Magic Carrot worth objectively 270-400 dolla with the Magic Carrot being worth slightly more in that it wins in case of a tie. Let's take the case of 400 dolla, this means outside of value-threat it guarantees a +400 Dolla value on a carrot (A carrot that's not the Magic Carrot can be considered worth 0 at the end of the game). Therefore, it begs the question, who would vote for a person who played a card as economically Aggressive as +400 Dolla. The answer is, players will "vote politically" based on which player they prefer to remain friends with. This is quite similar to the scenario created when groups take votes on card rulings and/or house rules rather than reading and/or using the official rules, but on a much more instantaneous and impactful scale. The reasons this would/should be considered highly aggressive is purely psychological. Obviously, having the Magic Carrot is also a +400 Dolla play in this scenario. However, getting the +400 randomly and unknowingly is usually considered a much lesser sin than directly causing yourself to get a guaranteed +400 Dolla expected value. It's the same logic, but on a much larger scale, as choosing random carrots and getting Flo is considered less aggressive than directly choosing Flo. Therefore, the terrifying part of this card is not that it's overpowered, but rather that it would instantly kill friendships if anything but the Magic Carrot was voted for since Ardra should be considered one of the most Aggressive plays in the game (expected value +400 Dolla). The card is actually weakened by its state of being too strong. In theory, no one should vote for the player who uses it. In practice, people will sometimes vote for this player (usually for reasons external to the game) and it will become extremely toxic, lol. |
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Post by OMFGitsVico on Aug 4, 2019 7:53:03 GMT -5
Oh wow, LOL. Impressive analysis. Guess that just shows how outta the loop I am, heh.
Any suggestions for how to make it less toxic?
How about instead of a vote, it comes down to something more strategy based? 🤔
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Post by mahobear8 on Aug 4, 2019 9:16:50 GMT -5
Oh wow, LOL. Impressive analysis. Guess that just shows how outta the loop I am, heh. Any suggestions for how to make it less toxic? How about instead of a vote, it comes down to something more strategy based? 🤔 A vote is quite strategy based according to the Passivity Meta theories. The problem is that it's a very toxic form of strategy at this level of relevancy. For reference, the only cards currently that use a voting mechanic I can think of are Casting Misfortunes and Island Vote, both of which have 10 Dolla relevance. Much less than the 800 Dolla relevance we're trying to balance here. (Infinite dolla relevance if considering Relative value) I can think of 2 cards as of Pumpkin Spice that have close to this amount of relevance in terms of Carrot to Dolla value. With each of these, notice the drastic limitations/restrictions set in place. Choose a Carrot Zodiac in the conditions where you have every saved Zodiac is potentially a Choose 24 Carrots (+240 Dolla Relevance). The very large restrictions in place to balance this are the task of acquiring every Zodiac (probably through Procession) and getting the correct die roll (15.97% chance). The better example is Tivy Telos. For the sake of argument, let's compare the conditions required for Tivy Telos to give you +400 Dolla (We could compare the +800 as well if we looked at the case of 4 card combo turn 1 Tivy Telos). In order for Tivy Telos to give you +400 Dolla Value, the restrictions in place are Having 2 bunnies, Being the player with the most dolla who has a bunny, 40 carrots remaining in the market, roll a 2,10,12,20 (20%), All opponents must not have a combined amount of dolla >= the amount rolled [2,10,12,20]. (This last restriction is near impossible in most 4+ player groups). I think there are 2 ways to salvage this Ardra ability from being toxic. First, you could lower the dolla relevance, but this is at the risk of losing the theme of the card. (Perhaps something along the lines of all players must give you 1 carrot before revealing the winning Zodiac) The other option is to increase the restrictions. In terms of balance, you'd probably want it to be more restrictive than Tivy Telos at the +400 case. You'll have to figure out what types of restrictions would make sense thematically |
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Post by Nathan454 on Aug 4, 2019 14:05:31 GMT -5
The better example is Tivy Telos. For the sake of argument, let's compare the conditions required for Tivy Telos to give you +400 Dolla (We could compare the +800 as well if we looked at the case of 4 card combo turn 1 Tivy Telos). In order for Tivy Telos to give you +400 Dolla Value, the restrictions in place are Having 2 bunnies, Being the player with the most dolla who has a bunny, 40 carrots remaining in the market, roll a 2,10,12,20 (20%), All opponents must not have a combined amount of dolla >= the amount rolled [2,10,12,20]. (This last restriction is near impossible in most 4+ player groups). One player would have to have that Dolla amount. Opponents wouldn't be able to combine Dolla to pay the player. |
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Post by mahobear8 on Aug 4, 2019 14:20:35 GMT -5
The better example is Tivy Telos. For the sake of argument, let's compare the conditions required for Tivy Telos to give you +400 Dolla (We could compare the +800 as well if we looked at the case of 4 card combo turn 1 Tivy Telos). In order for Tivy Telos to give you +400 Dolla Value, the restrictions in place are Having 2 bunnies, Being the player with the most dolla who has a bunny, 40 carrots remaining in the market, roll a 2,10,12,20 (20%), All opponents must not have a combined amount of dolla >= the amount rolled [2,10,12,20]. (This last restriction is near impossible in most 4+ player groups). One player would have to have that Dolla amount. Opponents wouldn't be able to combine Dolla to pay the player. Thank you for the correction. I had incorrectly remembered the mechanic. The point still stands that in a 4+ player game this is still extremely difficult, even on the 20 roll case. |
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